Students protest religious commitment with debaptisms
News Wednesday, September 16th, 2009
GLENN LANDBERG/THE ARBITER Rebecca Ames, a former political science student who graduated in May smiles and closes her eyes as she prepares to be sprayed with “unholy” water Tuesday afternoon in the Quad.
As the “unholy” water sprayed into his eyes, he squinted. With the reverse baptismal prayer already said, there was just the blow dryer of “reason and inquiry” left and Mitch Brinton, a freshmen psychology major from Salt Lake City, would be debaptized.
The former member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said he heard about the de-baptizing event two weeks ago. Tuesday afternoon, Brinton followed through and was debaptized in front of 10-15 people clustered around the event sponsored by the Secular Student Alliance in the Quad.
“I was planning on doing it anyway, but I thought, hey, it will be fun,” Brinton said.
According to Brinton, he was ”probably the Mormonest Mormon you’ve ever met.”
Alicia Clegg, a junior English literature major from Blackfoot and treasurer of the SSA performed the debaptism on Mitch.
The debaptism began with reading a baptismal prayer backward. The SSA chose the LDS prayer because according to Clegg, it was the shortest.
After Clegg read the garbled, reversed prayer, she quickly sprayed the unholy water.
Next, students were dried with the blow dryer of “reason and inquiry.”
With the process over, debaptized students were given an orange Get out of Hell free card. The card was given “just in case we’re wrong,” Clegg said.
In the first two hours of the event, about 10 students were debaptized, according to Clegg.
She said the purpose of the event was to give freedom from past religious commitment.
“Catholics get baptized when they’re babies and they don’t have a choice in that. Mormons get baptized when they’re eight. They’re kids!” she said.
Clegg said she was raised LDS and baptized at age eight. At 18, she left the church. She said she went through the questions she had about religion and came to a conclusion.
“I found out the god in the sky was an unreasonable idea to hold,” she said.
Across the sidewalk from the bustling table of the SSA debaptizing, was the Tau Kappa Epilson fraternity president, Mike Pennington, handing out information and hoping to recruit members.
“I don’t know what to think about it. It’s freedom of speech if they want to do that,” said the sophomore marketing and biology major. “It’s somebody’s choice to be baptized, but if they’re here trying to get people to be debaptized, it’s like they are saying they were brought up wrong.”
While twisting the cap of his water bottle, he said he questioned whether students would have wanted to be debaptized, if not for SSA making it such a big display.
“In the bible it says you should be baptized,” said Billy Mogensen, an advisor for the Campus Crusade for Christ or BSUCRU. “It’s showing that you have made the decision to follow Christ and you want others to know it.”
Mogensen said CRU hasn’t performed any baptisms on or near campus.
“I would call it (debaptisms) funny if the reasons behind it weren’t so serious. You know what I mean? I want to laugh at it. It’s amusing to me and they probably think it is too. But it’s very much mocking something that I take very seriously,” Mogensen said.
SSA meets every Friday at 6 p.m. in the SUB. This Friday, they’re hosting a Pastafarian Pasta party to celebrate the internet phenomenon of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The FSM is a religious satire website that argues if intelligent design should be taught in schools, then so should the history of the FSM.
According to their Web site, venganza.org, the church has existed for hundreds of years.
“With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshipers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by its opponents – mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs,” according to their Web site.
Rebecca Ames graduated from Boise State in May with a Political Science degree and was debaptized Tuesday afternoon.
“I liked church because I felt an sense of awe. I thought that (awe) was god.”
Ames said she went through different faiths before deciding on atheism.
“I realized that the world is big, the universe is big, there’s a lot of beauty,” she said.
Without believing in god, she said she still sees “awe” in the world.
“I’m connected to something whether there’s a god or not.”
Would you be 'debaptised'?
- Absolutely not (56%, 187 Votes)
- Yes (41%, 137 Votes)
- Unsure (3%, 6 Votes)
Total Voters: 331
Short URL: http://arbiteronline.com/?p=28027
Posted by Andrew Ford on Sep 16 2009. Filed under News. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
"These people don't do things to make fun of what atheists & secular students believe in!"
Actually I know have been around many "Christians" who do make fun of, look down upon and ridicule atheists and secular students. So, that's statement is far fetched, no pun intended but they are not all angels.
I know/have been*
This is the most sacreligious display i have ever heard of and you folks seriously should be ashamed of yourselfs
well you should be ashamed you didnt post your name when calling someone out like that.
Matt, I understand your views and would like to thank you for being clear in explaining why this event was offensive to you.
Just to express my views in reaction to yours- from the secular end, I would take issue with the idea that religion is "beyond" a belief in god and merely an instrument for personal and communal improvement, since these things are possible without religion. It is very much dependent on the idea that there is a being who is truly is all-knowing and thus can and will reveal what will be beneficial to us, instead of leaving us to our own judgement.
Without accepting that foundation for morality, the idea that submersing an individual in water and saying a few words is in any way significant to how they live their lives beyond the meaning that that individual gives to the ceremony IS silly. I think it doesn't make sense to expect us to attach the same reverence and respect to baptisms that believers do. Because we don't hold the same reverence for the ceremony, performing de-baptisms was an effective way to advertise our club- would the same number of people who talked to us on Tuesday talked to us or discussed us if we had been inviting people to sign a piece of paper? Yes, the event utilized satire and we knew it would offend some, but it also inspired a lot of discussion and got our name out there.
I would also disagree that your perception or idea of love and respect are inherent aspects of an individual's faith or Christianity in general- maybe they are manifesting their love for me by telling me to go to hell because it will make me re-consider my sinful ways and repent. That's a different debate altogether, though.
It says that it is picking on Christianity, but if you read the article it seems to be labeling mostly LDS people. They use our baptismal prayer, they show a picture of someone wearing a missionary tag upside down and the young freshman boy from Salt Lake City said he was the mormonisty mormon, or however it was put. It saddens me that people feel this is okay. You are right there is the first amendment, but as others have said, if we had LDS Missionaries on campus preaching the gospel and doing baptisms, there would be an uproar. Makes me sad things that once were held sacred are being publicly mocked.
It does make sense that in an area in which the LDS religion is predominant that members of the SSA here would probably have experience with the specific traditions of that Christian sect and thus be able to satirize them.
The LDS baptismal prayer was used because it is the shortest we could find. When you're trying to say a passage backwards, length is a practical consideration.
It also makes sense that members of the SSA would have or know people with easily recognizable signals of the LDS faith to use in the ceremony, and that many people taking advantage of the de-baptisms would have been baptized in that faith. Individuals who had been brought up in the Jewish, Catholic, and Baptist faiths also took advantage of the de-baptisms, though.
There WAS a bit of an uproar in response to these de-baptisms, and I'm sure LDS missionaries could preach on campus and hand out Book of Mormons just like the Bible guys if they wanted to. And I am curious if the school would allow baptisms on campus- everybody seems to take it for granted that it wouldn't be allowed, but the school is funding religious organizations now, so it does make me wonder.
I'm sure that baptisms haven't always been held sacred by everyone. It is fascinating, too, that people expect non-believers to hold the ceremony of baptism sacred and sacrosanct when they don't really hold anything sacred in the true religious sense of the word.
? Two thumbs up.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen…whether I am religious or not. They are making a mockery of any sacred part of any religion. Using permanent marker? spray bottles? Sad that some lives have no purpose but to find new ways to make fun of things people put close to their hearts.
Laughing through the whole thing really doesn't help support their cause. They know its a joke, so why not make a few people laugh. Get out of hell free card? That is just silly, pure and simple.
And, I gotta call out Ken Fukumoto on his post.
"The intent wasn't to offend, but merely to open our arms to more students that have traveled a path of religion and no longer choose to follow that course, in a lighthearted manner."
I'm throwing up the BS flag on that one. Poking a little a fun at a specific religion is harmless at best. However, this "ritual" was blatantly disrespectful to those that hold it sacred. This "protest" wasn't about informing people of an alternative. It was about going out of your way to perform a backward/opposite ritual. It was apparent that disrespect and mockery was your goal.
"we're not afraid of voicing our opinions of other religions' practices for fear of repercussions".
Really? I'd like to see your little group do an anti-Islamic protest this week. I hope the reaction isn't like the Mohammed cartoons from the Danish newspaper a few years ago. Maybe you can go after Judeaism next, or would it hurt your credibility to be labeled anti-semetic?
You, sir, are either a fool or a liar.
By the way, why does it bother you so much that someone else adheres to a religion? Why should it matter to you if they were baptised or not? Who died and made you God?
Don't worry, I got the joke.
Why does it bother others so much when people DONT adhere to a religion? honestly it goes both ways.
It's funny that eveyone is taking this as them being all up in arms about people being religious. …. maybe it was just funny? Hhhmm.
I have had people stop me on the street to try and convert me, come to my door to talk to me about christ, and stand in the middle of my campus to tell me I am going to hell, and every time they were either christian or mormon.
Um, maybe it's purpose was to be flagrantly disrespectful? I'm all for being funny, even joking about religion. But, like any other joke, there are certain lines you don't cross. You can laugh at religion without making a mockery of it.
The decision to follow or not follow a religion is a personal choice. Handing out Bibles or pamphlets is no different than passing out advertisements for your local band playing at the downtown club. If you are interested, you'll listen.
Offering debaptisms is no different than handing out bibles. People could take them up on it or not, and talk to them about the club if they were interested.
You're just switching up the language. What is obviously "flagrantly disrespectful" to you is really funny to many other people. Is there any really good reason for religion to be exempt from mockery? We can mock most institutions and get away with it, but mess with God and suddenly people are up in arms.
I would like nothing more than to see all religion just go away. All of it. Not the people, I love people, but religion is a waste and dangerous. Same goes for the concept of race. Too bad people ever noticed differences in skin color in the first place. Too bad people ever needed an idea of a supreme being(s).
I wonder who would come out of the woodworks in anger over the Now Straight group offering to de-gayify gays. To make it more apt, Now Straight de-gayifies by reading backwards a passionate journal entry of someone who has decided they are gay.
Discuss. And watch and see if the Arbiter staff censor this.
Secularism is a waste and dangerous.
we're not the ones holding our breath for judgement day.
bring it on, I'll just start a club that gives out cher and abba albums!
Interesting point. We'll cover it if it happens.
Andrew Ford
Alexis, I am not sure of your point? Religion is a choice, being Gay is not. And religious groups already try and "de-gayify" as you put it. And people HAVE been discussing that for quite sometime.
I do not see it so much as picking on or ridiculing a particular religion as a somewhat light-hearted way of getting in touch with people who were baptized into a religion they do not agree with. I personally turned down a de-baptism on the quad that day as I never was baptized and did not feel the need to undo something that was never done to me. However, I have had several friends who were born into religious families and never had the choice I did in the matter. Many of these folks found it very difficult and stressful to "come out" as atheist or agnostic to friends and family who did not understand that their religion simply does not ring as true with everybody. I don't see anything wrong with extending a hand to people who are struggling with this, and humor can be a good way to connect with people and help deal with an issue that can otherwise cause pain and heartache. To those of you who are offended or think that this demonstration was specifically attacking Christian faiths, I would ask you to think about the number of Christians and Christian churches in this city. I think it likely that most students who are dealing with these issues here are coming from Christian families, so it makes sense to use that as a starting point. Also, out of all the times people have tried to convert me to a religion, I can't think of one that was not some form of Christian, and I find it bewildering that it is considered okay for them to try to convert people to their way of thinking, but that it causes so much outrage when the situation is reversed. Personally, I am equally polite to all missionaries, religious or secular. For example, the last time Mormon missionaries showed up at my door, I explained that I wasn't interested in converting to their faith, but did ask them if they'd like to come in out of the heat and have a glass of water before moving on. They turned me down, saying they were not allowed if there was no man present in the house, which is another aspect of their faith that I did not necessarily agree with, but we parted ways amicably. Couldn't we handle this with as much civility? If somebody can try to tell me that I will burn in hell if I don't convert to their religion and we can say goodbye with a smile, then why can't you do the same with somebody who tries to tell you that there may be no hell to burn in? If this whole de-baptism thing goes against what you believe, simply don't participate. I think everybody is free to believe what they want to believe, and I don't understand why we can't just respect our differences and move on. Are you really so easily threatened?
I think it difficult to imagine that the same amount of discontent that is being shown toward this event by religious folks could be expected to be shown by the gay folk and their allies. If nothing else, the analogy demonstrates why religious folk find it a little offensive. There was little point in using the LDS baptismal prayer other than to make an affront to the religion, no matter how veiled or denied. Then again, it does shows an incredibly lack of creativity on the part of the event organizers to not be able to come up with a de-baptismal prayer of their own.
Correct the first sentence to read "could not be expected"
Secularists and theists alike:
Could you stop being so boring? Come up with some real-gone tactics.
A few suggestions: the next time someone tries to convert you, ask them why the letters of Paul should be in the bible while the gospel of thomas is not. Watch them sqirm.
Or you theists: go to a debaptism ceremony with your exorcism kit, complete with ice cold water and firecrackers.
Tired of stupid christian paegents on the quad? Get your friends to dress up as microbes for an interpretive dance of early evolutionary processes.
Or how about this: both sides pick your top dawg (the secularists can vote and the theists can pray) and pit them in a peyote wrestling match. See which one freaks out the hardest. If the secularist doesn't freak out, it was because of the clarity of their mind through reasoning exercises. If the theist doesn't freak out, it's because their god wished them not to.
Or even better: ORGY! Nuzzel up on a cutie christian or a hunky humanist. Midcoitus, see if you can convince them that faith keeps them from enjoying the sweet things in life, or as they're about to climax, tell them you guys won't continue until they make Jesus Christ their personal lord and savior. This way (1) you can all have a little bit more sex in your life and (2) you might turn someone on to the truth (as you might see it).
By the way, I am LDS/Hindu and an amateur evolution scientist. Happy Trails!
finally, a plan that makes sense.
ZING!
Brilliant.
They say inquiry and reason…so:
Inquiry,
How do you know there is no God?
Can you scientifically prove it?
Oh, you can't… so we're back to square one?
Some inquiry and reason you've got. You're worse off than you were before.
So if you think baptism isn't important Secular Student Alliance you are mistaken! Baptism is KEY and a "get out of jail free card" won't cover you.
http://dandunson.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/hate-it…
well you can't scientifically prove the existence of god, but I think many people would agree that the burden of proof is not on the non-believer.
Is this really newsworthy. I mean seriously, this is one of your top stories?
Maybe we should hold a debate like this one on campus…http://fora.tv/2007/05/07/Al_Sharpton_and_Christo…
We (the SSA) are holding a debate on December 5th in the Simplot Ballroom. "Does God Exist" is a debate between Matt Slick, founder of CARM.org and Eddie Tabash, a Secular Humanist lawyer.
Tabash's website: http://www.tabash.com/index.php
Slick's website: http://www.carm.org/
I choose to believe in God. I am a Christian. I don't attempt to go door to door
and convert everyone around me. I believe my faith is between me and God.
It does not bother me that others choose to be Atheists or other religions. That
is their choice. What does bother me is the way this group went about expressing
themselves.
Why didn't you just urinate on the cross? It would have had the same effect.
Your reasons for doing what you did are obvious. You wanted to incite anger in
Christians by insulting them through defacing the holiest relationship between
god and a believer.
You did this to draw attention upon yourselves. It wasn't to make a point other
than to show your contempt in people who believe.
You cite the constitution as an affirmation to your behavior and imply religion is
to blame and is somehow oppressing you. In case you have forgotten your
history, this country was founded by people fleeing religious oppression.
The famous Jeffersonian quote most commonly referred to is the separation of
church and state. Jefferson was a devout christian and was referring to State
imposed religions (Church of England).
He rightly reasoned the state should not attempt to control individual religious beliefs
nor should the church attempt to control the government.
Your twisted interpretation of history and our governing documents are no excuse for
RUDE, INCONSIDERATE, FOUL, AND DISRESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR.
You can claim it was not your intent to be disrespectful. That is not what your group
says in public though. They are openly hostile towards religion, so excuse me if I don't
accept your explanation.
Many of the original colonies were established by people looking to have freedom from religious oppression, and many of the founding fathers were adamently opposed to state mandated religion. Yet atheists are still one of the most untrusted and in some cases reviled groups in a nation that was made, supposedly to give people the freedom to practice or disregard religion as they may choose.
Also, about your Thomas Jefferson bit, Thomas Jefferson is hardly a devout Christian. For instance, he went about altering the Bible removing the parts that he disapproved of (hardly an act of someone who respected the supposed word of God). He was a deist, about the closest thing to atheist that a respected part of the public could be at the time, which reduces the divine (as impersonal and disinterested as it is) to a "watchmaker". Many of the founding fathers had such a limp position on God.
This had more to do with the history surrounding the forming of the counterculture in the 60's and 70's, when acts of disrespect toward symbols and institutions were declared protected speach so long as they were not public hazards. Though it's arguable whether the first amendment right to speech was intented to be used in this way, that's what we got on the books.
[...] Students protest religious commitments with debaptisims by Andrew Ford – An report on the curious mid-day “Debaptisms” that took place in the center of campus. [...]
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This is highly offensive & the stupidest thing I have ever seen! The media should had been contacted. This would give Boise State bad publicity! All we have here are uneducated students trying to mock others. Very offensive! If I see this on campus this year I will be filing a complaint with the University among other things.